Kathleen Fealy 0:06
Let’s do a warm up. Let’s ask how everybody’s week has been going, or do you want to ask a more pertinent question?

Betsy Muse 0:15
Look at you with those three syllable words?

Kathleen Fealy 0:17
I know, it’s almost it’s almost auspicious.

Three colleagues, Molly McBeath, Betsy Muse and Kathy Fealy. Now three friends with different life experiences discuss, or perhaps more likely banter about marketing, entrepreneurship and the realities of getting things done. In this episode of Yes, But However, we tackle imposter syndrome, I mean, literally one of us would like to take it down, while another one wonders of hugging the stuffings out of it will get it under control. And spoiler alert, Molly’s, mic cable decided to cause havoc with her audio. But this is real life. So we embraced the philosophy of better done than perfect.

We have all been in business for a period of time, most of us more than 10 years. And also the fact that I am sure that each of us has sort of experienced this because the more people are in business for longer periods, they actually start to doubt themselves more. So I’d like to get your thoughts on this. So why don’t we start with Molly.

Molly McBeath 1:41
That’s (audio issues), longer you’ve been in business the more you get down on yourself. That makes sense to me, because your expectations of yourself get higher, the longer you’re doing something. For me, I think I ran into a conversation about imposter syndrome about a week ago just coincidental. And that discussion was largely around the base of the imposter syndrome is more than just self doubt and lack of self esteem. But that it was more about the gap between who you really are, and what expectations you have of yourself, or what expectations you (audio issues). And that makes a lot of sense. I dislike the idea that imposter syndrome is just a lack of confidence in your abilities, because to me, then (audio issues). Right? Eventually, after 20 years, my God, wouldn’t you recognize that you were competent at something and feel comfortable with your skillset. But then we all struggle with the some sort of imposter syndrome in moments of doubt, whether or not they’re severe or (audio issues) so I just I thought that was really interesting. And I’m also curious what you guys,(audio issues)

Betsy Muse 3:22
I’ve taken my cue from Dr. Valerie young because I came across an article based on her research and studies. And she listed the five types of imposters or imposter syndrome. And as I looked at him, and I was just like, well, crap, I’m all of them. And in way I was they that the labels of them are the perfectionist. And I yall already know, I have a horrific issue with perfectionism, the Superwoman or Superman, the natural genius, the soloist and the expert. And each of them describes me in different situations.

And so, I knew, for me, the way it plays out is that I just would shy away from visibility.

I would convince myself that, you know, I don’t need to prove anything to anyone else. I just need to be good at what I do, and the rest will come. But as an entrepreneur,

if you’re going to grow your business, you’ve got to have some type of visibility.

And I definitely buy into that. I just don’t like it, because I don’t like visibility. And I think that’s you know, I haven’t had a situation where I felt like imposter syndrome was holding me back in any other way. You know, when it comes to learning something new. I don’t feel like it was just In growing my business through visibility, and just, I didn’t want it.

But that’s changed. I think just, y’all know that I was part of the summit in January, and jumping off a cliff and just doing something big and new and very, very visible. It didn’t cure me of it. But it proved to me that it wasn’t as painful as I thought. And do I still suffer from perfectionism, absofrigginlutely. It doesn’t seem to hold me back. And I recognize it now, when I’m kind of a little hesitant to jump in and do something and I’m able to sit back and say, okay, so why is this? You know, why am I not willing to do XYZ or be on this podcast? or do whatever and it’s, you know, nine times out of 10? It’s just, I’m going back into old habits.

Molly McBeath 6:02
What about you Kathy? What are your experiences with imposter syndrome?

Kathleen Fealy 6:05
I think mine are a little bit along the lines of Betsy’s as far as like, learning more and meeting more, I think my problem is that the more I know, the more I realize what I don’t know. And I need to learn. And that plays itself in my business, because in a lot of ways, I’m a consultant to a lot of people, and I give them strategies on how to do things, and then the tactics. But we’re in the world of technology, and marketing, and things are changing all the time. And I’m always like, I’ll do enough research on something and I’m like, Oh, that’s really fascinating. I wonder about this. And then you can go down the rabbit hole really quick, of like doing a little more research, and then you start to go, Well, maybe I don’t know, as much as I thought I did on x. Well, the reason I know it’s imposter syndrome, is because I will then have a meeting with a client and I will be talking to them and they’ll be telling me what their issue is they need more leads, or more web traffic or cut better customer experience, whatever the topic is. And I’ll ask some questions, and we go through the whole normal routine. And the next thing I know they’re like, Oh my god, I never thought of that. I can’t believe you knew that or, like, Oh, I guess I did know enough.

But it’s but I find that happens all the time. I’ve been asked to speak on stages at conferences. And I’ll be like, one time I was on the stage with like three or four people that were so the top usability speakers in the country at the time, maybe even the world and I’m on the same panel with them and I think, “Why am I here? The only thing I could come up with is I was a small business and they wanted to show that they were remain inclusive. So not just having, you know, bigger companies or whatever represented. But afterwards people came up afterwards and talk to me and said, Oh, you know, that was such a practical answer for how to do things because I’m so used to working with, you know, small to medium sized budgets, not enterprise level budgets, so I have a different approach. But then imposter syndrome keeps rearing its ugly head occasionally because of the fact that I just feel like there’s so much to know and I know that I been a one person company you can’t know it all.

Molly McBeath 8:19
Yeah, that but that sense of getting more comfortable with yourself has been one of the nicer parts of getting older and being in business for a long time is at least I’m I now more comfortable with the idea that I’m not going to know at all and that’s fine. And I can learn it. Or I can choose to outsource it if I want but I think that was that’s a difference between young Molly and let’s call her mature Molly. Let’s not go to old Molly just yet. But I think that’s that’s an important change for me that is nice here in midlife just being able to be more comfortable with myself and say, yeah, it’s okay that I don’t know that. There’s a lot that I do know. So imposter syndrome, I think now is different from when I was younger. For me, anyway, I don’t know. I mean, does it feel different to you guys? It’s been if they wouldn’t remember.

Betsy Muse 9:38
I don’t know that I recognized it as imposter syndrome. When I was younger. I just knew I was I always set the bar incredibly high. And I never wanted to accept defeat. And I was going to work until everything was perfect. Joanna Wiebe, one of my mentors, stressed when you’re working for yourself, you got to ship your product, and better done than perfect is going to rule the day. And initially, that was difficult for me to embrace, and I still have a hard time with it. But I will, I can get paralyzed. Before I even start something like working on my homepage, both of you have heard me, I’m going to work on my homepage, I’m going to get that copy on my home page. There’s not going to be that much copy, just sit down and write it. But the homepage has to be perfect. So I need to continue to work on that. But I think in the past, I just I didn’t know what it was. And so old Betsy, I’ll say it. Old, Betsy, is able to Betsy current Betsy, there we go current recognize that when it’s going on? I just didn’t know what it was. I did suffer from it. And I didn’t, I didn’t think of it as imposter syndrome. I just set incredibly, almost impossible standards for myself.

Molly McBeath 11:12
Yeah, that’s that’s the key, though, isn’t it to recognize that you are working with or you feel a sense of failure, because we didn’t perhaps make your impossible goals or your impossible metrics of no one ever is never going to get that. Or, you know, you achieved 99.5% of what you wanted. And that point five is just killing. Yeah. And, and that is something that I definitely struggled with, when I was young, just not being able to see the fraction. I saw the fractions of equal what I did accomplish, and what I didn’t accomplish all of my goals. And then as I’ve gotten older, I’ve been able to see Oh, actually, no, I accomplished pretty much everything that I wanted there. And just there was this one tiny thing that didn’t quite work right in. And I will take that and learn from it, and incorporate that into something else. And it’s gonna become a whole new thing. And it’s actually like, the opportunity now, or just a painful lesson.

Betsy Muse 12:22
Is there something that happens that maybe sent you a little message that says, oops, you know, imposter syndrome is rearing its ugly head, and you need to attend to this, give yourself a pep talk, do something, or is it not a problem at all anymore?

Kathleen Fealy 12:39
Well, I think it’s still a problem. Because as I said, in fact, when you talked about whether or not when you were younger, was it worse? Actually, when I was younger, I think I was more arrogant, and thought I knew everything. And I would I remember horribly now I remember speaking in front of a college class, and I just had a here’s like, Oh, yeah, you just do this. And this, and I was just like the most, you know, confident and whatever, when somebody would ask a question, it’s like, oh, no, you just do this. And this, and it was like, Oh, it’s not like, any room for thinking about doing it any other way. And that was like, especially when I was doing video, because I think I had to prove myself so much. So I couldn’t allow doubt, to enter my mind. Older, I started to realize how much more than it is to just know about everything in life. And I think that I also recognize how talented people are in so many different aspects of life, that that’s when my imposter syndrome actually kept rearing its ugly head, because it was sort of like, why should anyone be listening to me versus these other people? Because yes, I do have knowledge in a particular area. But you know, there was always a part of me that was always saying, You’re good now. But there’s other people that are just as good. And it’s like, wait a minute, you know, you can’t? It doesn’t make sense, because if I’m looking for someone to guide me or teach me, I mean, yes, there’s maybe five or six people I can choose from, but it’s the person who’s going to work with me or for me, the best that I choose. So I have to always remember that sort of in the back of my head. Does that make sense? Or have I rambled, which I tend to have a tendency to do at times.

Molly McBeath 14:39
And that totally makes sense to me. I think it’s tough to be aware of when it’s happening, and I’ve gotten better at that. But maybe only in the last year or so. There’s been kind of space in my life, to have some quiet One of my kids graduated from high school and moved out. And so there’s just a little bit more mental space in my life and try to think about what it what is it like because it’s it’s certainly here’s it’s Nashville. What is it like when it’s usually it’s like it’s a running chatter that starts softly. And then for me, it gets louder and louder. And then eventually, it’s loud enough that I can’t ignore it anymore. And I also turned my head and listen to myself. And really try to listen to me. Oh, right, you’re telling you that I’m never gonna be good at this. If there’s a reason why this bad thing is happening. And I and this is just me getting found out that I’m never going to be as good as far as I’m supposed to be. And then I just think Oh, right. Yeah, nice. That’s, that’s just my nerves showing up and me feeling unsafe, because I’m trying something that I’m not comfortable with. What I’m trying to approach it as a gift of it’s, no, it’s a little voice and from Primal, Molly’s saying, there’s something that scary here. But you should take a look. And so for me, I need to think about what you know, where is this here coming from? Where is this doubt. And it’s I mean, it’s not like it hasn’t has serious, significant effect on my life. 

And I was thinking about this earlier, I realized that I was not some of it is just, like I said, this difference in what you expect that you should be able to do. And what you really can do it sometimes you just don’t recognize your own talents. And sometimes you are pushing yourself, and you’re not getting to a place where you’re as comfortable as you’re going to be. So you have to kind of figure out where you are there. But there’s also times when you’ve gone through something that’s traumatic is too strong. But you know, we’ve got to have a difficult experience. And sometimes that can really color your perceptions of your ability going forward in your life, so that you can carry a very negative perception of yourself that comes from the outside, you carry that with you that affects your ability to move forward and make decisions for yourself. And I’ve certainly I definitely have had that experience in it. It really be rocked me for a long time that really hold me back in fixing something that I that I go and poke at and try to deal with you dismantle those, those beliefs from that really negative experience. Whereas when I was in college, so I was like 21 years old, I was in a summer program for women in science. This sounds like a good supportive environment, doesn’t it? A little spoiler alert. So at the very end of this summer of research in geology that I was doing, we had a presentation on what what our research was, and practice that the weeks because you were giving the presentation in front of all the local geologists and hydrologists and other scientists who built around the university in this small town. So there were like three professionals in the audience who came and they did this every year to listen to your presentations and give you some feedback. And we practice in front of our professors who led the program. I stand up there on that Thursday night in that little University auditorium with my slides, and I and I go through my talk, and it goes pretty well. And then my advisor stands up in the q&a portion and makes really cold I was so devastated like I locked it out it’s all like a black man races like this boy.

Unknown Speaker 19:39
What he said I couldn’t talk to him about it for another week or so. And I finally said No, and I can when I felt a little recovered and said I just don’t understand why you did that. You saw me practice the talk and you knew what I was gonna say. Why don’t you tell me that you disagree with my offices. I didn’t want you to back down. This is I wanted to see how you would handle it. And so he thought he was doing something educational for me. But it it was it greatly affected me it was very, I mean, so when I think about imposter syndrome, there’s that memory comes up for me feeling like I had done everything right, and then something went terribly, terribly wrong. And so requests to send you some perfectionism comes in and feel like, you can’t ever practice enough, it can’t ever be ready enough, you can’t ever do it right enough. Something bad is gonna happen to you. And that’s something so that’s something that I really have to look at, when I start to feel that those can be read that I’m going to be found out for it. Because I have lived through it. And even though I’m old enough to say, Well, yeah, I lived through. And I survived, and I’m fine. But it kept me It held me back for a long time that I didn’t really look at it and deal with that. The story that I told myself about what a failure I was, and I didn’t anticipate my advisors, arguments against my work.

Betsy Muse 21:32
You know, one of the things that I do, because I do recognize it right now fairly early on. And I think it’s because I’m so actively working against imposter syndrome. And like I said, I don’t usually call it that, because I recognize it, as perfectionism. But the steps that I do, because I mean, like I said, I know exactly when it’s happening because I procrastinate. That’s my big Waving Flag. And it happens frequently enough that I know it’s still a problem. So what I do is, you’ve heard me call it jumping off a cliff, I force myself to do things that I’m not ready to do that, you know, so I, I have a series of boot camps coming up Business Blastoff Bootcamp, whoo. And so what I did is and this, they will be over by the time this airs. So not too self promotional here. But what I did was I put the graphics out on social media before I had the landing page written. I had two hours to write my landing page. And the landing page was definitely better done than perfect. And so that’s what I do, I just go ahead and get it scheduled, and jump off the cliff. And I go, it’s taken me a long time to learn that.

Kathleen Fealy 23:01
I find the more that I step outside my comfort zone, the more I recognize that imposter syndrome is going to show up. But I also realized, what’s the absolute worst that could happen? Even if somebody calls me on something and says you don’t know a thing about that. If that was what happened, though, the best thing to do is just to sort of then step back and say, okay, so explain to me where you see a difference of how would you said, we have enough background and experience in our lives, that we should be able to overcome that little, I’m curious to see what you guys each think it looks like.

Because like we’re all talking like it exists, like this little ad comes up that goes, Hey, are the imposter syndrome.

But we know enough that there’s other things we can offer in relief in relationship to whatever topic we’re talking about, or whatever thing we are doing for someone. So I almost feel like we’re able to better tame the imposter syndrome, even if it shows up.

Molly McBeath 24:09
There’s a difference between holding off on doing something because I know it just needs to stand on our drive in my brain because I’m not quite there yet. In terms of what I what I want to write. I know that that’s part of my writing process is that it just kind of has to stew for a while until I figure out what the thrust of the argument is going to be for example, and but there’s that versus just procrastinating because it’s going to be work in the end I might be really, I like feel like a fraud while I’m writing it. I don’t know what I’m talking about. I’m your expert in combustible dust. But I’m going to pretend to be one. But you know, by the time I’ve written that fourth article on it, actually I know quite a bit And I’m pretty good at that topic, and I can hold my own in a conversation with an expert on that. And so it’s okay to start at the beginning, which I know this is getting into the whole, fake it till you make it thing and I have mixed feelings about that. But this is one of those cases where it’s, you know, it’s okay, start feeling like, you’re not an expert, because you don’t know where you’re gonna get to by the time you’re through that tunnel of the process that you’re

Kathleen Fealy 25:30
picking up on what you just said, Molly, I, for example, I had a prospect this year, who’s the project’s been put on hold, because it’s a COVID crisis and their budgets right now. But they asked me to bid on the project. And I actually emailed them and said, I’m not sure if I’m the right person for you. I don’t have as much experience in this particular field. And quite honestly, I’m not really sure what you do, because it was a very technical piece that they wanted me to look at, to improve the customer journey. And they said, well, let’s get on the phone calls, we got on a phone call, we went through the whole thing. And I said, You know, I really again, I may not be the right person for you, I would love to do this job. It sounds fun, it sounds like we could really make some progress and working on the customer’s experience. 

But honestly, I’m not 100% sure I really understand enough about this, and ended up working to my advantage, because they were like, well, we actually like the fact you don’t understand a lot about this, because we don’t think our customers do either. So you can help us fine, where are those confusing gaps, etc, which sort of surprised me that that was going to be their take on it. Because there are other people that specialized in this particular industry. And yet, they had worked with those people before, and they still couldn’t get their customers to relate to the content. So I think in some cases, people have to remember the imposter syndrome comes up because they’re learning something, that is not necessarily a bad thing to say to someone. You know, I don’t know enough about this yet. But I’m also willing to learn a lot more. And because of all the other experiences you bring, it actually can sometimes enhance your knowledge to the people. Betsy, but do you think now,

Betsy Muse 27:25
I was, you know, I think for some people admitting that they don’t know, something comes a lot easier than for others. And I think when you can admit that so comfortably. You’re a reformed imposter. So I just think it’s a sign of maturity, you know, and, and accepting that it’s okay to not know everything. And I love that it worked out in this case, because like you said, they saw that as a strength that it put you in the same position as the clients they were trying to speak to. So I love that story.

Molly McBeath 28:14
So do we have recommendations.

Kathleen Fealy 28:16
This is probably contrary to the way people should do it. But if you are seeing that, you’re starting to feel like you’re an imposter, I think that you need to embrace it, and just sort of say Screw it, basically. And that you’re obviously in a new place where you have passed your comfort level, perhaps, or you’re trying something a little bit more challenging, you’re not just willing to stay in that super comfortable, I’m not willing to learn any more realm.

And I think just hug that imposter syndrome and say, you ever have any more power over

me, I love you, goodbye. I just keep and really push past it. And if you recognize

I think there’s a part of you that can just say, I must be really onto something now. And this, you know, even if I stumble, I know enough to recover. And I think that’s I think that’s my takeaway right now, based on where I am right now in my business.

Betsy Muse 29:25
I just first I want to differentiate between those of us who are able to push through on our own and who have made it to the to a point where we can and those who are truly paralyzed by imposter syndrome. Because you know, I’m not a psychologist or counselor in any way and I want to make sure that people understand that we’re not diminishing what they might be going through, because it can affect people In a much more powerful way than it affects me. And I will say, through the course of my career, it has been a very powerful influence. And I didn’t write, like I said, I didn’t early on, I did not recognize it for what it was. But

I, you know, I hope that you know, my advice and Kathy’s advice and your advice, Molly doesn’t, doesn’t rest the wrong way with folks who maybe do need more formal coaching, or, or, or discussions with a professional to help move them away from this because it can be paralyzing. And you wind up, never taking those steps that Kathy just talked about, and that I’ve talked about, but for those who kind of now recognize it for what it is, and I agree with Kathy, that, you know, at some point, you’ve kind of, I’m not gonna say I embrace it that’s going a little far, Kathy.

Kathleen Fealy 31:04
But maybe, maybe that’s what I need to do in order to get past.

Betsy Muse 31:08
The what, but, but but recognize it, you know, look at what you’ve done in the past, because that’s what I do, what what did I do the last time, and usually what I did the last time is exactly what Kathy said, you just take that first step, and you move past it, and you push yourself to do the thing that you’re dreading doing. And I know that’s easier said than done. For a lot of us.

Molly McBeath 31:32
From my perspective, I would say that the first step, never gets, never gets less painful. It’s equally painful, every single time I do, maybe that’s just me, sometimes in meaning, like the second and third steps are often they’re less painful than the first book, but they’re not less painful than last time. It’s still painful, but what what gets less painful is my discomfort about, about pushing myself through it. And recognizing that, alright, this was just this was this painful last time in medical coding. So this will get better, this very moment, but 10 minutes from now it’s going to be and you have to do it enough times to get to that point where where I can live with the discomfort of for me, I just want for those other people who feel that way. That is not what people get for me. It’s not listening for either. I’m just more used to the owner. And so now I can recognize Oh, right. This is that very uncomfortable feeling I hate this part. I know, I know that there’s a third part. So I’m just gonna push through it. Now I get to do that.

Kathleen Fealy 32:57
When you say that, that sounds to me like that feeling you get when you take a new class and you’re like, you have to go to college and you know, you’re going into a whole new circumstance. It’s all those first things that you go through, it seems like the same feeling. In some ways. It’s the imposter syndrome. I’m actually maybe we’ve all been experiencing the imposter syndrome since we’ve all been little kids. Because we’ve all had to go into new grade schools or new high schools or new colleges or new jobs or something. And you always wonder, like when you start with a new job, did you know enough, you know, we’re really going to find out they shouldn’t have hired you and stuff. So it sounds like the imposter syndrome. It’s been, it’s really with us throughout our lives. And

Molly McBeath 33:44
it never goes away especially. Well, maybe it does in fact, nowadays. You’re always you always stay in your comfort zone.

Kathleen Fealy 37:32
Let’s do a warm up, we’re going to find out they shouldn’t have hired you and stuff. So it sounds like the imposter syndrome spin is really with us throughout our lives.

Molly McBeath 37:43
It never goes away especially. Maybe it does start challenging. You’re always you always stay in your comfort zone, you probably do.

Kathleen Fealy 38:15
Jobs are something that you always wondered like when you start with a new job. Did you know enough, you know, we’re really going to find as I shouldn’t have hired you It’s so it sounds like the imposter syndrome spin is really with us throughout our lives.

Molly McBeath 38:30
And it never goes especially well maybe it does. Stop challenging yourself. If you’re always (audio issues) challenge yourself, you’re going to doubt about your ability to handle the situation. Herbalife will do that too. Right. I am more on the downside that I am trying to embrace that feeling. Because I’ve tried to recognize it’s a part of myself that was trying to use it. And so it’s trying to do something for me. And it’s like it’s telling me something that is important. And then I need to respect that doesn’t mean I need to listen to it. And I don’t need to follow its advice.

Betsy Muse 39:26
I think the important thing to leave people with is that, you know, it looks different for each of us. We aren’t psychologists, we aren’t professionals here. We don’t want to diminish what someone else is going through. I think a lot of us learn to recognize it and understand what we need to do to push past it.

Molly McBeath 39:46
I do think it’s very helpful to talk with other people who feel that you trust that has been right.

Betsy Muse 39:54
You know, find another group of people maybe in your industry in your profession. And there are masterminds and accountability groups and talk with people you trust.

Molly McBeath 1:58
One thing that I would if I could go back in time and talk to younger me. I wish that I could tell her you’re not always gonna feel like this. it is going to get better. You’re going to be a lot more accepting of who you are and more celebratory of all the things that you can do.

Kathleen Fealy 2:18
this has been yes that however I’m Kathy Fealy withmy co hosts Betsy Muse and Molly McBeath. This episode was written, edited and produced by the three of us, our theme music is tourist in Puntacana, which is available here on the show’s website where we post show notes, transcripts, and more information about us, can be found at yes but however podcast dot com. You can contact us through the website or email us at talkers at yes but however podcast, dot com. Thanks for listening. 

It’s time for the disclaimer, the information opinions and recommendations presented in yes but however average general information only and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. No part of this podcast should be considered professional advice.